[00:00:00] coming up, on this episode of Ridiculistics! cause there's a whole gravy hole behind diamond geezer, and I'm not going to go down it
[00:00:37] Tim: let's start this podcast.
[00:00:38] Hello everybody, and uh, welcome to Ridiculistics.
[00:00:43] Tim: I'm Tim,
[00:00:44] Joe: and I'm Joe!
[00:00:46] Tim: And uh, here on Ridiculistics, as you guys are probably, uh, aware of by now,
[00:00:50] Joe: Everybody say it together!
[00:00:52] Tim: Joe and Tim talk about language, primarily, idioms. Idioms are, uh, sayings that are derived from literal language, [00:01:00] but put into another context to mean something else.
[00:01:02] Like riding the gravy train, for instance. Where did that come from and when, and how did it come to mean what it means today? That is Ridiculistics.
[00:01:12] Joe: Hey, speaking of riding the gravy train, welcome to episode four. It's all about Thanksgiving. Let's get to it.
[00:01:20] So I thought it was important that we, um, let people know that as we share these idioms with our audience, we're also sharing what we've learned with each other. We know what each other's topics are going
[00:01:34] Right, right. We talk about which idioms we wanna do. but, but as far as the research goes, that's all kind of secret
[00:01:41] Tim: we've done that intentionally because we feel like it's more interesting to you know, to have our responses be fresh.
[00:01:48] Joe: Definitely.
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[00:01:54] Joe: When I think of Thanksgiving, , how could you not think about the food? Of course, being [00:02:00] thankful, I think is the key
[00:02:01] Tim: Yeah.
[00:02:02] But primarily, I think about food and I think about the wang doodle weirdo stuff that we always had. I never ate that stuff. Everything was tan and brown and white on my plate. Because jello molds and things that come with Thanksgiving side dishes.
[00:02:22] Tim: There's a Jell O mold dessert that has, like, shredded carrots in it. Why? There's no, I don't want that.
[00:02:30] My, my grandma had this dish that I thought was delicious. It was called, uh, Vegetable Melange.
[00:02:39] Joe: Melange? Is that like a medley?
[00:02:43] Tim: Yes.
[00:02:44] it's like an orgy of vegetables.
[00:02:47] Joe: A vorgy!
[00:02:50] Tim: it probably would have been more popular. So at a certain point, especially after my grandma died, she was no longer able to make it,
[00:02:58] Joe: that's usually how that works.
[00:02:59] Tim: It was [00:03:00] actually before it was before she died that I took this over. And I, cause I thought this is such a delicious thing.
[00:03:05] I'm going to do it.
[00:03:06] Joe: nobody else liked it?
[00:03:08] Tim: yeah, it turns out.
[00:03:10] Joe: So, that's okay, you're making that for you. Oh
[00:03:13] Tim: for everybody, but, um, it was this, it was this, uh, take vegetables. I don't even remember how to make it now. All I know is that it was in a sauce of like, there was a soy sauce and there was corn starch you put broccoli in there, peas, celery, it makes its own little gravy and, uh, I just thought it was delicious and so I started to make it and then one time I think I made it with baking powder instead of cornstarch or something and it just got all gummy and there were blobs of white stuff all over it and I couldn't fix it so I just like tried to smash them to get them, you know, dissolved. Didn't
[00:03:50] Joe: man, that's an I Love Lucy episode.
[00:03:53] Tim: I think it was the last time I brought vegetable melange to Thanksgiving. And I just like, my sister's still, [00:04:00] still give me shit about it
[00:04:01] Joe: wow.
[00:04:01] I'm no cook. But, um, at what point does a sauce or a juice become a gravy? You said, it makes its own gravy. How does, well, first of all, I want that on my tombstone. And second of all, if you smash something and some juice runs out of it, is that its own gravy?
[00:04:22] Tim: it's really interesting that you would say this because I had the gravy related idiom, for today's show. uh, they I got into, you know, you just go down this gravy hole. And, uh, which is what I did. And
[00:04:38] Joe: Wow!
[00:04:40] Tim: Turns out, gravy has a, a varied history. And, and there are arguments, people take sides as to what constitutes gravy. Is juice, gravy, is sauce, gravy?
[00:04:52] I think, it goes juice, sauce, gravy. In the viscosity of it.
[00:04:59] Tim: [00:05:00] Yeah, say you have like a prime rib, right, and it comes with au jus,
[00:05:04] Joe: I would say that's a sauce.
[00:05:06] Tim: but it's not, it's, it's very thin,
[00:05:09] Like, juice, in order to be gravy, juice has to have something done to it, right, I mean, typically, like, you'd add cornstarch to flour,
[00:05:20] Joe: that's why, making its own gravy is like, nah, you needed help. You need somebody else to, to. Contribute to your gravy,
[00:05:30] Tim: right. No, that's true.
[00:05:31] Nothing can make its own gravy.
[00:05:33] Joe: Right, because that's just juice
[00:05:35] Tim: or blood.
[00:05:37] Joe: Corn blood!
[00:05:39] Tim: I'm serious. Like, you could have like, you
[00:05:41] Joe: The first Thanksgiving, corn blood was spilled.
[00:05:44] Tim: You cannot squeeze blood from a corn cob.
[00:05:49] said? Corn dog. You can't squeeze blood from a corn dog.
[00:05:55] Joe: Oh man, I wish I would drive up behind a car that had that as a bumper sticker and [00:06:00] just scratch my head for the rest of my life.
[00:06:02]
[00:06:02]
[00:06:07]
[00:06:09] Joe: All right. So .'Let's go with the first idiom. It is an interesting one because it's not necessarily traditionally. Um, how idioms work. It's not really a saying, it's more of a moniker. It is Charlie Potatoes.
[00:06:23] Charlie Potatoes refers to a person, so you call somebody this, who is wealthy, successful, or who carries themselves with a confident, often cocky attitude. Typically due to recent success or elevated status.
[00:06:41] Tim: Hmm,
[00:06:42] Joe: all know some Charlie Potatoes.
[00:06:45] Tim: And now we know we can call them that.
[00:06:47] Joe: Here's an example, uh, Don't go all Charlie Potatoes just because you won a little money last night at the poker game.
[00:06:53] Tim: Oh,
[00:06:54] Joe: Yeah,
[00:06:54] Tim: then the other guy goes, do you mean?
[00:06:58] Joe: Right. I wonder how many times [00:07:00] somebody uses this and the other person has no idea what they just were called.
[00:07:05] Tim: Right.
[00:07:06] Joe: If you knew a guy named Charlie Potatoes, I don't think he would be an arrogant, wealthy, successful person, right?
[00:07:13] He'd be like a homeless guy with patches on his jeans.
[00:07:16] Tim: Right. especially if you think about like, you know, I'm Irish. So like going to the, potatoes. example, Ireland is known for its potatoes, but that doesn't imply wealth, it's a very basic staple, right?
[00:07:30] There's no, nothing fancy about potatoes.
[00:07:33] Joe: Actually, hold that thought, because, uh, I'm going into the origin, good setup, back in the day, Eatin' was a luxury just eating, period.
[00:07:43] That's why a lot of the Irish food is really hearty if you eat something, you want it to last, you want to be full for a long time. So the people that ate period were looked upon as like more. wealthy than the people that didn't. [00:08:00] And so even if you're eating potatoes, it's still something that is
[00:08:03] Tim: You're still eating!
[00:08:04] Joe: Yeah, exactly. And today we look on that as like a staple of
[00:08:08] like, Oh, potatoes are in everything. They're all over the place. so there's your history lesson. The timing of Charlie Potatoes was 20th century, thirties to forties. it's not known what the first usage was or who coined it specifically, but, author, Damon Runyon, wrote " the idol of Miss Sarah Brown, which Guys and Dolls was based on, Runyon was famous for stories capturing 1930s New York slang, and he used Charlie Potatoes to describe characters who were newly wealthy or had taken pride in their own status, kind of full of themselves, you know. then in 1958, it was in a movie, The Defiant Ones, Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier.
[00:08:51] I'm gonna buy me pair of buckskin shoes with a brand new suit and [00:09:00] a silk shirt and I'll be Charlie Potatoes coming down the street with a Panama hat and a good looking gal.
[00:09:09] Joe: It's like you aspire to be Charlie Potatoes.
[00:09:12] Tim: Yeah,
[00:09:13] Joe: I love that whole phrase. Panama hat? Sure.
[00:09:17] Tim: that's great.
[00:09:19] Joe: I'll be Charlie potatoes.
[00:09:22] Tim: my brother in law, says potatoes with an Irish brogue. Whenever he can, and my sister just cannot stand it.
[00:09:28] He says, Petiatus. funny thing is, when I say it, my sister doesn't get annoyed. It's only when her husband says it. And it's super fun to say it that way. Petiatus. Yeah,
[00:09:42] Joe: would you like some potatoes? Do you say it just the word? Would you like some potatoes?
[00:09:47] Tim: I think it's funnier that way.
[00:09:49] Joe: Oh, interesting.
[00:09:50] Tim: Do you want any potatoes?
[00:09:54] Joe: Potatoes. That's what I think of every time. The whole, uh,
[00:09:58] Tim: em, mash em, stick em in a [00:10:00] stew.
[00:10:00] Joe: Tejas, precious!
[00:10:02] Tim: That was a very good Gollum, by the
[00:10:05] Joe: No, it was horrible.
[00:10:07] Tim: I don't know. Sounded good. Go listen back.
[00:10:09] so Charlie Potatoes similar idioms. Big cheese fat cat or top dog high roller. And, uh, another one, which a Cockney saying from the UK and it means someone who thinks they are great or a big man or, quote, a diamond geezer of London town, whatever that is.
[00:10:33] Tim: Woah!
[00:10:34] Joe: But, it's "Charlie Big Potatoes"
[00:10:37] Tim: Wait, a diamond, do you think geezer is like, like G E E Z E R?
[00:10:42] Joe: That's yeah.
[00:10:44] Tim: Wow, because I was going to say if it's geyser, like Yellowstone, Old Faithful Geyser, like you're blowing diamonds out of the earth, you know what I mean?
[00:10:52] Joe: Yeah. I don't, I don't,
[00:10:53] Tim: but it's not, it's clearly not spelled that way, so.
[00:10:55] Joe: I stop my research right there. I didn't want to, cause there's a whole [00:11:00] gravy hole behind diamond geezer, and I'm not going to go down it. a couple of, uh, Asides, Charlie Potatoes, is, currently...
[00:11:12] Tim: Is currently living in Salem, Oregon.
[00:11:15] Joe: Ha ha ha! Close, but he's a, uh, a racehorse. And I'm like, that is a perfect name for a racehorse.
[00:11:22] Tim: Oh
[00:11:22] Joe: Charlie Potatoes, in the post,
[00:11:25] Tim: Yeah.
[00:11:26] Joe: Many people learned, and this is how I learned the term as well, because you actually introduced it to me, in 2012, there was a CNN interview with Robert Blake. Piers Morgan did this on his show. And in it was his first public interview Since Right, right. He was in hiding for like 10 years. He was acquitted for murdering his wife in 2001. And he referred to Piers Morgan as Charlie Potatoes during the interview.
[00:11:58] Here's the clip.
[00:11:59] CNN: [00:12:00] It's not about me, is it? Yes, it is, because you opened that door, Charlie Potatoes, and I'm not gonna let, I'm not gonna sit here and let you or anybody else kick the sh*t out of me without defending myself. And you can take that to the f***ing bank, Charlie. Fine. And if you want to show me the door, that's fine too.
[00:12:15] Joe: Piers has confessed that he didn't know the term before that happened.
[00:12:21] Tim: Really? Oh my god, that's hilarious.
[00:12:23] I didn't watch Beretta growing up
[00:12:26] Tim: It's got a great theme song. And also he had a bird on his shoulder.
[00:12:31] Joe: He had a bird
[00:12:33] Tim: something. He had, yeah, he was, that
[00:12:36] like Robert Wagner having the battery. keeps coming up in podcasts.
[00:12:43] like, I dare you to knock the cockatoo off my shoulder.
[00:12:45] It wasn't like that. It was he wander around with a cockatoo. think it was a cockatoo, but, uh, yeah,
[00:12:53] Joe: doing Friday night? You want to come over and knock some [00:13:00] cockatoos?
[00:13:00] Yeah. It, it is a treat to listen to, Robert Blake because he's so dramatic And really, like, from another time, and he's very confident, and when he says Charlie Potatoes, you know it means something, you're just not sure what.
[00:13:16] Tim: Yeah, I don't know how far down the Robert Blake gravy hole you went, but he's not like another planet, like Gary Busey, another planet.
[00:13:24] He's, he's like this planet, but like somewhere secret, or somewhere a different time,
[00:13:32] Joe: yeah. He's from the same place that Carol Channing's voice came from.
[00:13:39] Where is that?
[00:13:42] Tim: I, I have no idea.
[00:13:44] But, it made me want to go back and watch Beretta. And, and, cause he seems like such a dynamic being.
[00:13:53] Tim: like a, just a,
[00:13:55] Joe: Yeah, like, like, it's the kind of thing you want on your team, but [00:14:00] you don't want him on another team. Right?
[00:14:02] Tim: He's, yeah, he's like Dennis Rodman. He's like, he's like,
[00:14:05] Joe: Yeah.
[00:14:05] Tim: Ron Artest.
[00:14:07] Joe: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:08] Tim: he was a child actor, not Ron
[00:14:11] Joe: But Beretta was his big thing, right?
[00:14:13] Tim: yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:14:15] Joe: That's all I got, by the way,
[00:14:17] Tim: it's great, I'm psyched that you found so much.
[00:14:19]
[00:14:24]
[00:14:24] Tim: Let's talk about the one, which is what do you put on your potatoes? Uh, gravy.
[00:14:30] Joe: Heck yeah, especially if they're mashed.
[00:14:32] Tim: there were a couple of ones that we considered. One was, uh, the rest is gravy. But then we chose gravy train.
[00:14:41] Joe: Yes.
[00:14:42] Tim: so here are the things that I found, found out about gravy train, I did go down the potato hole about gravy in general.
[00:14:49] Joe: Because you're talking about gravy, you had to have a different hole?
[00:14:52] Tim: I have felt like it needed to switch it up a little
[00:14:56] so, Gravy Train is defined as a much [00:15:00] exploited source of easy money.
[00:15:02] Joe: hmmm
[00:15:03] Tim: Now Gravy, is known also from Merriam Webster as unearned or illicit gain. The term gravy for, you know, like actual gravy, um, back to the late 14th century.
[00:15:17] Joe: We're talking the liquid gravy.
[00:15:20] Tim: Yeah,
[00:15:20] I didn't even research, Solid Gravy.
[00:15:26] Joe: That's like That's solid gravy to me. You That's that makes sense.
[00:15:30] Tim: You know, you could say, you could say that in a meeting, and I bet, I'll bet it would get past most people. that's Solid, that's Solid Gravy right there. Uh, according to Culinary Lore
[00:15:43] culinaryLore. com is a great site,
[00:15:46] , it's the etymology of food words. That site says that in the early 20th century, the word gravy came to mean easy money. this sometimes meant easy profits resulting from just plain old good luck. [00:16:00] But it could also refer to easy but ill gotten gains, especially through conning your way into it. Its first known use, is 1914. Using gravy that way,
[00:16:10] Joe: Okay.
[00:16:11] In the 1920s, railroad men invented the expression to ride the gravy train to describe a run on which there was good pay and little work. The words were quickly adopted into general speech, meaning to have an easy job that pays well, or more commonly, to be prosperous.
[00:16:28] this is also from culinarylore. com. when you combine gravy with train, then you get the idea of easy money that keeps coming,
[00:16:37] Joe: Ah,
[00:16:37] Tim: just like a train.
[00:16:38] So Very, very plausible. Um, Pink Floyd, uses the phrasee riding the gravy train in their song, Have a Cigar, written by Roger Waters. it was on their, Wish You Were Here album
[00:16:53] Joe: love that song.
[00:16:55] Tim: So the whole thing is very cynical song about, record company [00:17:00] executives, , how they talk to the artists in order to convince them and, they're basically just serving themselves, right? so here's how it's used. Uh, and this is the chorus it's a very short chorus and it says, and did we tell you the name of the game boy?
[00:17:15] Joe: Uh huh.
[00:17:16] Tim: call it Riding the Gravy Train.
[00:17:18] Joe: Ridin the gravy train.
[00:17:22] Tim: And then also from culinarylore. com. In the 1970s, truck drivers had a similar expression. A gravy hauler was a truck driver who would only drive high paying runs. So, by the way, have you ever seen a gravy hauler like, uh, turned over on the freeway? It's the most delicious accident you'll ever come
[00:17:43] Joe: yeah. Especially if it hits a potato truck. Um, are you, uh,
[00:17:48] Tim: Thanksgiving.
[00:17:50] Joe: I am thankful for this sig alert,
[00:17:52] Tim: so, the thing that was a wee bit frustrating, is that I couldn't find the historical evidence [00:18:00] connecting gravy and train.
[00:18:01] Joe: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Tim: you have is a bunch of people saying A very, likely scenario.
[00:18:06] Joe: workers on the railroad. Yeah.
[00:18:08] Tim: There's a website called Worldwide Words, another fantastic site the guy who did it, his name is Michael Quinion and, he writes about, writing the gravy train. And he said, American etymologists have puzzled over it as much as anyone. Charles Earl Funk. who was an American lexographer, wrote several etymological dictionaries. , Funk thought it might have arisen in railroad lingo in which a gravy run or a gravy train meant an easy run with good pay for the train crew.
[00:18:37] It makes perfect sense because it was a gold rush kind of a thing too. The railroad industry.
[00:18:42] Tim: the only other thing that I could think of, and I didn't find any documentation of this, is that it came from the, Gaines Gravy Train dog food commercial.
[00:18:51] Joe: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Tim: And that would be the 1970s,
[00:18:54] Makes its own gravy! That's what the commercial says, I found it.
[00:18:58] to your point it Doesn't [00:19:00] make its own gravy
[00:19:00] Joe: Right.
[00:19:01] Tim: it needs the water, otherwise it's just dry dog food.
[00:19:05] Joe: You ever eaten dog food?
[00:19:06] I've tasted dog food in the seventies.
[00:19:11] Tim: but I mean, everybody experiments with stuff like that in college, right? Um, the one I tried was the milk bone,
[00:19:19] Joe: Oh
[00:19:20] Tim: the little, the dog cookie, the
[00:19:21] Joe: yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:22] Tim: You know what it tasted a lot like? Grape nuts. Same thing.
[00:19:26] Joe: milk, a milk bone tasted like grape nuts.
[00:19:30] Tim: that same tasteless, dry, cardboardy.
[00:19:35] Joe: Oh, well, it tastes just like it looks then because you, you, you can take a, take a, a cross section of, of a milk bone and man, it's like particle board.
[00:19:46] Tim: It's like particle board meets sedimentary rock. It wasn't good, but it was, it, I did keep coming back.
[00:19:52] Joe: Did you?
[00:19:53] Tim: You know? Yeah. What about you? What did you try? Okay.
[00:19:56] Joe: We had a puppy when I was growing up, SC [00:20:00] and, uh, she used to eat something called bones with a Z. B O N Z.
[00:20:07] Tim: No E?
[00:20:08] Joe: No they were these little like, uh, Ding dong sized, uh, white, they were definitely tougher than milk bones and they were supposed to be like, you know, a bone from an animal or something. And they had this little bit of marrow in them.
[00:20:22] Tim: the inside, inside, like a little red
[00:20:24] Joe: Yes, do you remember these? The ring and a little bell? Okay,
[00:20:27] Tim: I do,
[00:20:28] Joe: and, and I tried the little red dot.
[00:20:31] Tim: Oh, tried the marrow?
[00:20:35] Joe: Yeah, the bone marrow.
[00:20:37] Tim: God, that's gross.
[00:20:41] How'd you get it out of there?
[00:20:42] Joe: Oh, marrow. Oh, I used my finger, popped it.
[00:20:47] Tim: to the other side? Did you eat the whole thing?
[00:20:50] Joe: No, I didn't eat the whole thing. I take, I took a little,
[00:20:53] Tim: what you didn't
[00:20:54] Joe: I think I did. I think I gave it to SC.
[00:20:58] Tim: So yeah, that's the end of my, uh, [00:21:00] another idiom that goes sort of unresolved to an extent. But, Gravy Train. I'm still feeling pretty good about it. feel like it's worthy of being on the Thanksgiving menu.
[00:21:09] Joe: I did a quick search on that to see what other idioms could be similar. Uh, cash cow?
[00:21:15] Tim: Yeah,
[00:21:16] Joe: Make a quick buck, easy street is another good one,
[00:21:19] sittin on a gold mine, money for nothin um, rakin it in, and then also, I'd never heard of this one, but have you ever heard of money for jam?
[00:21:30] Tim: No.
[00:21:31] Joe: And then it says, in parentheses, or, money for old rope.
[00:21:36] Tim: I could have sworn you were gonna go with jelly, but old rope,
[00:21:43] Joe: Yeah, that, yeah, you wouldn't think that in parentheses. Also, instead of Jam, Old Rope.
[00:21:49]
[00:21:53] Joe: it's time for the main dish.
[00:21:55] Tim: Time for protein.
[00:21:56] Joe: We're going to talk turkey. [00:22:00] So talk turkey, means to speak directly or honestly or straightforwardly is a word, uh, about a subject. Often, with a focus on a serious practical matter.
[00:22:12] Tim: like, let's get down to business sort of thing.
[00:22:14] Joe: yeah, I love the, the example sentence actually has an idiom in it, which is great.
[00:22:18] It's let's stop beating around the bush and talk turkey about the budget cuts.
[00:22:26] The origin of Talk Turkey, it was us, the U. S. of A., in the early 1800s. As Turkey was a key part of the American life. the Expression initially had a different meaning and it related to talking aimlessly, but by the mid 1800s, it eventually evolved into meaning engaging in straightforward conversation. What a, what a
[00:22:50] yeah, and that's why a lot of people still mistake it as that like talking turkey. Oh, you're talking turkey because if you're being a turkey, [00:23:00] you be in silly or or you know what it was some kind of turkey and it's not a serious thing but talk turkey. is a serious thing. So when you're like, get down to brass tax whatever those are, you, you are, you know, they sat down to talk turkey over the final price of the car kind of thing.
[00:23:21] Tim: Yeah.
[00:23:21] Joe: get down to it. Similar idioms, would be cut to the chase. Or, Get down to brass tacks. There it is.
[00:23:30] And straight talk.
[00:23:32] Tim: yeah.
[00:23:33] Straight turkey talk.
[00:23:35] Joe: to straight turkey talk with Joe and Tim.
[00:23:37] We don't beat around any bushes. We cut right to the chase.
[00:23:41] Tim: That works.
[00:23:42] Joe: because the real, when you get down to it, What do you, when you, , when you finish the job, what are you doing? Do you beat the bush itself?
[00:23:49] Tim: the Bush, You Beat the Bush,
[00:23:51] Joe: We're just beating around the bush. When are we gonna start beating the bush?
[00:23:55] Tim: So that's an alternative to Talk Turkey, Beating the Bush.
[00:23:59] Joe: Alright, now it's [00:24:00] time to beat the bush. Maybe we'll find some brass tacks.
[00:24:02] Tim: let's get down to brass turkeys.
[00:24:05] Joe: Can you spell, brass tacks?
[00:24:08] Tim: That's B R A S S T A C K S.
[00:24:13] Joe: It is. And I, thought it was, T A X. Like, it was a, it was a tax on something.
[00:24:21] Tim: like a, like a tax on your brass stuff?
[00:24:25] Joe: Yeah, is, is, is when you tear something apart, are brass tacks inside of it? Is that what it is? You get down to brass tacks, it's like the last thing you get.
[00:24:35] Tim: Oh, yeah, see, that's another
[00:24:38] Joe: That'd be my guess, yeah, brass tacks. Now that I know it's tacks and not tax.
[00:24:44] Tim: Yeah, down to brass tacks. I think it's tacks, not T A X.
[00:24:50] Joe: It is, it is, it is T A C K S. But I bet I can make up a story for either one.
[00:24:55] Tim: Yeah, bet you could.
[00:24:57] Joe: Brass Tax, that's uh, the Sheriff of [00:25:00] Nottingham employed brass tax. He went around and collected alms from the poor. Hahaha,
[00:25:07]
[00:25:12] Joe: we've gone through Charlie Potatoes, Gravy Train, Talk Turkey, Where we going?
[00:25:18] Tim: pie in the sky. That's what we're doing. We're going to have some pie the sky. Uh, this one of the most fascinating and satisfying. just like dessert. Pie in the sky is an unrealistic enterprise or prospect of prosperity. It's first known use according to Merriam Webster is 1911.
[00:25:41] Britanica dictionary defines it as something good that someone says will happen, but that seems impossible or unlikely, sort of an empty promise. so dictionary. com, describes it "as an empty wish or promise as in his dream of being hired as a sports editor proved to be pie in the sky. The expression [00:26:00] was first recorded in 1911 in a rallying song of a union, the international workers of the world." Okay. So. Not being, because I did my due diligence. I of course looked up
[00:26:13] Joe: Your Scooby Doo diligence?
[00:26:14] Tim: when does the library say this book is Scooby Doo? Can you be Scooby overdue? what I found out was it's not international workers of the world. It's industrial workers of the world. Here's why I diverged for a second, because this was like a history lesson about industrial workers of the world. it's a fascinating backstory.
[00:26:40] And as it turns out, it's, it's important history too. So I got all this information from, American experience, which is
[00:26:48] Joe: Great stuff.
[00:26:49] Tim: this industrial workers of the world, was formed. His name was William Haywood, and he was the organization's leader and symbol. [00:27:00] Get this, he was a former hard rock miner, over six feet tall, more than 200 pounds, with a glowering glass eye.
[00:27:10] I mean, how is,
[00:27:11] Joe: Wow.
[00:27:12] Tim: that for like,
[00:27:13] Joe: the
[00:27:13] Tim: founder of Union?
[00:27:14] Joe: Great
[00:27:15] Tim: It was based in Chicago, which is where the IWW was founded. what's interesting about it, there was already a labor union. called the AFL, which is the American Federation of Labor, but that was for skilled labor.
[00:27:27] The IWW aimed at unskilled workers, non whites, immigrants, women, and migrant workers, these people weren't allowed in the AFL because they weren't skilled workers. according to historian Joyce Kornbluh, the IWW was a union based on the principles of Marxist conflict and the indigenous American philosophies of industrial unionism. So, anti establishment, anti what they called capitalist class, So, pro sticking it to the man, anti [00:28:00] religion. So you can imagine anything based on Marxism, Marx famously referred to religion as the opium of the people. Guess what they were called, for short, the members of the IWW? Wobblies. Yep.
[00:28:17] Joe: Wobblies?
[00:28:19] Tim: Wobblies. Yeah, I guess Wobblies wobble but they don't fall down.
[00:28:24] Joe: You know what? I called those things growing up was Weeble Wobbles.
[00:28:29] Tim: Yeah, I've heard them called that.
[00:28:30] Joe: But they're not. They're weebles.
[00:28:32] Tim: They're Weebles.
[00:28:33] Joe: And they wobble.
[00:28:35] Tim: But they're not Weeble
[00:28:36] Joe: Well, they don't fall down. can assure you of that, mister.
[00:28:41] Tim: I said good day.
[00:28:42] Joe: This weeble shall wobble, but no! It shall never fall down!
[00:28:49] Tim: Um. So yeah, they're called Wobbles. Wobblies, I mean. Now I'm Now I'm talking like
[00:28:57] the Wobblies formed this union. they [00:29:00] wanted to control the means of production and distribution. So they really wanted to stick it to the man who was, you know, controlling them. Um, so the IWW, uh, still exists. according to the, PBS article. It continued to press the rights of workers, free speech, and civil rights. Today, the IWW retains a vigorous press and is a magnet for writers, playwrights, oral historians, and filmmakers fascinated by the legacy of this vibrant, militant, fist shaking union.
[00:29:30] I mean, they were badasses.
[00:29:31] Joe: I guess so.
[00:29:33] Tim: and I had no idea, they were formed in 1905, and so one of the things that they had, they were like an interesting organized machine, um, and one of the things that kept them organized and socially engaged were these labor songs that songwriters would contribute, sometimes their members would write. and they were, songs of [00:30:00] revolt.
[00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Joe: Maybe their bosses were tyrants or whatever, but that being, aware of something like this happening where it's like, Oh yeah, they sing songs all the time of revolt. They're not happy at all.
[00:30:10] Tim: I get the impression that the powers that be didn't really care.
[00:30:14] Joe: Yeah.
[00:30:15] Tim: I don't think they felt threatened by this.
[00:30:17] Joe: I don't think times have changed much, honestly,
[00:30:20] Tim: I was going to point that out
[00:30:21]
[00:30:21] Tim: between, the top and the bottom.
[00:30:23] been an issue.
[00:30:24] Obviously it's not like it is today. It wasn't as extreme, but it was there.
[00:30:28] Joe: So, was there one of these songs that we knew? Is that what you're getting to?
[00:30:33] Tim: no.
[00:30:33] This is what the Wobblies did. So they had this thing called the Little Red Songbook. It's, that was the shortened version of it. The actual name was called, Songs of the Industrial Workers of the World. Subtitled in some editions, Songs to Fan the Flames of Discontent.
[00:30:49] Joe: Oh, wow.
[00:30:50]
[00:30:50] Tim: So this Little Red Songbook, it became part of their world, part of their social, uh, patchwork. There was, one guy named Joe Hill who [00:31:00] was a Swedish American labor activist and a wobbly. he wrote a lot of songs for the, the Little Red Songbook. According to Jeremy Harman of the Salt Lake Tribune, among Joe Hill's most enduring songs, his biting the preacher and the slave. A parody of the hymn, In the Sweet By and By, . But in the song, The Preacher and the Slave, Joe Hill coined the phrase, Pie in the Sky. for the chorus to this song. describing churches who hound workers for donations and ignore hungry families. So, this is a very cynical song. The lyric itself it goes, A little something, like this. Long haired preachers come out every night, try to tell you what's wrong and what's right. But when asked how about something to eat, they will answer with voices so sweet. Into the chorus, you will eat by and by, in that glorious land above the sky, work and pray, live on hay, [00:32:00] you'll get pie in the sky when you die. he's criticizing and satirizing the powerful, in this case religion, promising something, this case, Heaven, neglecting and taking advantage of the poverty stricken workers they're supposed to be helping.
[00:32:18] He's talking
[00:32:18] Joe: He did. He went straight to the... gizzard? according to, phrases. org. uk, the first time it began to be used figuratively was in the Second World War To refer to any prospect of future happiness, which was unlikely ever to be realized. For example, this report from the California newspaper, the Fresno Bee, November 1939. The business world is fearful that Roosevelt's obsession with war problems will mean a continued neglect of questions which will restrict trade and profits. They are highly skeptical of Washington's promise that they will, quote, "eat pie in the sky" solely from war orders which they decry publicly. It becomes [00:33:00] something promised that is not likely to happen. Um, but what's interesting is that eating pie in the sky gets shortened to pie in the sky over time. Um, as it gets used more. I actually came across a graph of its growth and use in printed language.
[00:33:14] Tim: So from 1911 to 2020, guess when it's in its highest use in print.
[00:33:21]
[00:33:21] Joe: I'm leaning 50s, maybe 40s,
[00:33:25] Tim: That's, that's where I would have gone to.
[00:33:29] Joe: What?
[00:33:30] Tim: 2010. Obviously it would come up a lot in editorials, right?
[00:33:36] Joe: Right.
[00:33:36] Tim: opinion pieces. And does it give you a sense of the cynicism of people, of society, during eras of like, you know, when is something most likely to be promised and not delivered?
[00:33:49] I mean, we live in a pretty cynical era now, so it sort of speaks to that. that's pretty wild. What else you got on that?
[00:33:58] interesting. Super interesting. That's [00:34:00] it. That's all, that's what I got.
[00:34:02] a, Wobbly.
[00:34:04] you should.
[00:34:05] You want to come with me?
[00:34:06] Yes,
[00:34:07]
[00:34:12] Tim: now that we survived, Thanksgiving dinner, wise, um, it's time for listener questions, feedback letters to the editor
[00:34:20] Joe: We have a couple of follow ups from the previous episode, uh, correction that I need to talk about that I made,
[00:34:27] Tim: Boo! Shame!
[00:34:30] Joe: said Springfield, Illinois, instead of Springfield, Ohio, when I was talking about people eating cats and Whatever they were eating, apparently.
[00:34:38] Tim: Oh Yeah, and by the way, look it up. The Haitians, the immigrants, they are organized, and they are infiltrating Springfields. all over the country. it's like cloud seeding. You just look it up. they're going specifically to eat the dogs and the cats and the geese, but only in Springfields.
[00:34:59] Joe: So, if you [00:35:00] live in a Springfield, you should, uh, hide your cats.
[00:35:03] Tim: Speaking of Springfield, Massachusetts, there's gotta be at least one there, right?
[00:35:06] Joe: Sure.
[00:35:07] Tim: Yeah. we called them out, I think, a couple episodes ago, because they, um, tweeted us. Do you tweet something? Do you X something? What do you do?
[00:35:16] whatever. UMass Linguistics has been telling all their subscribers, uh, that we're out there. So that's great. Thank you guys for doing that. also, I think we reported before that they said we might be a little bro y, which we were very flattered by. And then they said "might be a little sophomoric, but worth listening to." I want more of those. It's like a compliment sandwich, but it's open faced.
[00:35:40] Joe: I always wondered about the open face sandwiches because are you not, are you just not done making the sandwich and you were too lazy to whatever or is gravy involved?
[00:35:49] Tim: Everything about an open faced turkey sandwich, except that I don't eat turkey sounds
[00:35:52] delicious right now.
[00:35:53] Joe: for sure. But what is it that turns you off of turkey sandwiches? Pretend that you eat turkey for a [00:36:00] second. After Thanksgiving. I mean, it's like, all you have is turkey sandwiches. Is that, is that why?
[00:36:06] Tim: Yeah, but here's the difference, I think, to most people. the turkey, like the real turkey, carved turkey. It's like off their radar the rest of the year. So they might go and get deli turkey, right? And you have a deli turkey sandwich, but nobody's going to go like, you know what?
[00:36:23] I want turkey sandwiches this week. I'm going to go get a turkey and cook it. Maybe it's the cooking of the turkey.
[00:36:29] Yeah, that is a lot of work. I, I remember we always had to cook the turkey in the garage because it was the only place big enough for the, turkey cooker.
[00:36:37] Tim: car sized turkey? Was
[00:36:39] Joe: It was surprisingly large,
[00:36:41] Tim: Was that a one turkey garage or a two turkey garage?
[00:36:44] Joe: That's where we parked our carcass.
[00:36:48]
[00:36:53] Joe: I got a, a beef to pick. we, we, still, I don't know, maybe we have a couple, but [00:37:00] man, shoot us a review. give us something on the, uh, on the, on the feedback and feed front
[00:37:06] Tim: directly on where you're listening to your podcast, right?
[00:37:08] Joe: Give us a review or send us an email at a feed front at ridiculistics. com or fill out the form on our site. Ridiculistics. com go there and you can read all about the past episodes. We have a lot of cool links. This one is going to be chock full of links because there's so many things that we've uncovered here.
[00:37:27] Uh, you can find us on YouTube and Instagram and,
[00:37:33] Tim: facebook.
[00:37:34] Joe: yeah, but yeah, wherever you are, we'll be too.
[00:37:38] Tim: And also, also, Ridiculistics. com.
[00:37:41] Joe: yeah, if you hit one place, hit our website, say hi.
[00:37:44] Tim: Also, last week I think we, we talked about the carrier pigeon.
[00:37:49] got no messages delivered from the carrier pigeon.
[00:37:53] Joe: Yeah, I, I have some news on that. I'll, I'll talk to you after the show.
[00:37:58] Tim: Is it Thanksgiving [00:38:00] related?
[00:38:00] Joe: Maybe.
[00:38:01] Tim: With regard to that, and Joe, I didn't, I didn't mention this to you, but I've added another, um, You can reach us by telegraph. Use Morse Code, and you can dot dash us, at www dot, dot, dash, dot, dot, dot, dash, dot, dot, dot, dot, dash, dot, dash, dot, dot, dot, dash. hang on. we're getting there dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dash, dot, dot, dash, dot, dash, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. com.
[00:38:43] Joe: Is is it spelled just like it sounds?
[00:38:45] Tim: Yes.
[00:38:46] Did you spell Ridiculistics?
[00:38:50] Tim: Yep.
[00:38:51]
[00:38:55] Tim: I think that just about wraps it up, uh, Happy Thanksgiving everybody, and we'll, [00:39:00] see you next episode, this is Tim, bye.
[00:39:02] this is Joe. So long. This was Ridiculistics, the Ridiculistics Podcast.
[00:39:12] Tim: That's Ridiculistics, uh, is anybody Anybody listening? Okay.
[00:39:22] Bye.